Infinit or Nissan for GT-R_debate
08-04-2005, 09:28 AM
#11
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Nissan wants the GTR to be a technological tour de force, but they also have to make money with it. I believe that the decision to make it a Nissan or Infiniti will be made on what makes the most financial sense to the Company.
They are keeping the GTR name, they did not decide to change that!
They are keeping the GTR name, they did not decide to change that!
08-04-2005, 11:49 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by dragon
Nissan wants the GTR to be a technological tour de force, but they also have to make money with it. I believe that the decision to make it a Nissan or Infiniti will be made on what makes the most financial sense to the Company.
They are keeping the GTR name, they did not decide to change that!
They are keeping the GTR name, they did not decide to change that!
but the car-maker must do what they must do to ensure it affects the largest possible market that can bear the car's price, reiterating your point.
08-04-2005, 05:36 PM
#13
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For fun I looked up some data of the age of purchasers of sports cars. The attached chart shows data from R.L. Polk 1999, shown in an article from cars.com. People aged 45 and older make up more than 50% of the purchasers of sports cars.
The "suits" at Nissan know they have to appeal to this group with the GTR in order to make a go of it. To me, this age group is the same one more likely to go to an Infiniti dealership.
The "suits" at Nissan know they have to appeal to this group with the GTR in order to make a go of it. To me, this age group is the same one more likely to go to an Infiniti dealership.
08-05-2005, 04:38 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by dragon
For fun I looked up some data of the age of purchasers of sports cars. The attached chart shows data from R.L. Polk 1999, shown in an article from cars.com. People aged 45 and older make up more than 50% of the purchasers of sports cars.
The "suits" at Nissan know they have to appeal to this group with the GTR in order to make a go of it. To me, this age group is the same one more likely to go to an Infiniti dealership.
The "suits" at Nissan know they have to appeal to this group with the GTR in order to make a go of it. To me, this age group is the same one more likely to go to an Infiniti dealership.
the whole tuner movement came about because of affordability. nissan never had any intention of making the GT-R affordable, then or now.
08-05-2005, 05:45 PM
#15
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Bonzelite,
The source: R.L. Polk & Co. Figures based on 1999 new-vehicle registrations.
So this is just for new purchases in 1999. Not sure how broad the catergory of sports car was defined, but I would think that the more expensive the sports car, the greater the number of people 45 or older that buy one.
True a car like the GTR is not meant to be affordable, but if it is too expensive then I think Nissan would have a problem too. The higher the cost the less sales they would have. For myself, I would spend $70,000 but not sure if I would spend say $90,000. For example, I liked the NSX, but the $89,000 price tag was too high for me.
When you get into the $90,000 and up range then you start running into Porsche and other brands that have a status associated with them. As you pointed out before that status symbol can be a big factor in the purchase of a car.
If the GTR price stays well below those brands and still gives comparable performance, then I think Nissan will do well.
The source: R.L. Polk & Co. Figures based on 1999 new-vehicle registrations.
So this is just for new purchases in 1999. Not sure how broad the catergory of sports car was defined, but I would think that the more expensive the sports car, the greater the number of people 45 or older that buy one.
True a car like the GTR is not meant to be affordable, but if it is too expensive then I think Nissan would have a problem too. The higher the cost the less sales they would have. For myself, I would spend $70,000 but not sure if I would spend say $90,000. For example, I liked the NSX, but the $89,000 price tag was too high for me.
When you get into the $90,000 and up range then you start running into Porsche and other brands that have a status associated with them. As you pointed out before that status symbol can be a big factor in the purchase of a car.
If the GTR price stays well below those brands and still gives comparable performance, then I think Nissan will do well.
08-05-2005, 06:10 PM
#16
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dragon, yes, good points.
the issue of pricing is actually something that has been perhaps the most mysterious of unknowns about the upcoming GT-R. most definitely, i think that the car will go for the porsche-buying crowd. i think Infiniti has no intent whatsover to make the car affordable. and that swings the pendulum way over to Infiniti.
if Nissan is really doing what i think they are, and will actually follow-through, putting their money where their mouth is, the new GT-R is going to be a supercar that will put heat on Porsche and be a Le Mans contender.
this makes me think, too, that insofar as a racing presence, Nissan will probably remain the head name, as in that context, the car is purely a racing machine.
if the GT-R debuts worldwide as Infiniti, the racing moniker may be "Nissan/ Infiniti," with the Infiniti logo present, but in the shadow of Nissan. in other words, the pit crew will have Nissan across their jumpsuits in bold letters, as now, with, maybe, the Infiniti logo smaller, somewhere below (if at all). but i am more inclined to think the Nissan name will predominate in a racing context.
the issue of pricing is actually something that has been perhaps the most mysterious of unknowns about the upcoming GT-R. most definitely, i think that the car will go for the porsche-buying crowd. i think Infiniti has no intent whatsover to make the car affordable. and that swings the pendulum way over to Infiniti.
if Nissan is really doing what i think they are, and will actually follow-through, putting their money where their mouth is, the new GT-R is going to be a supercar that will put heat on Porsche and be a Le Mans contender.
this makes me think, too, that insofar as a racing presence, Nissan will probably remain the head name, as in that context, the car is purely a racing machine.
if the GT-R debuts worldwide as Infiniti, the racing moniker may be "Nissan/ Infiniti," with the Infiniti logo present, but in the shadow of Nissan. in other words, the pit crew will have Nissan across their jumpsuits in bold letters, as now, with, maybe, the Infiniti logo smaller, somewhere below (if at all). but i am more inclined to think the Nissan name will predominate in a racing context.
08-06-2005, 12:13 PM
#17
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Bonzelite,
My racing expertise is sadly lacking, but if Nissan is the name that is known then I would say keep it the same. What about the NSX? In the racing world do they use the Honda or Acura name?
I sure hope the GTR will give Porsche et al a run for their money. My affinity for the Infiniti badge is strictly for new car purchases and the customer support issues we have discussed.
Eagerly looking forward to the TMS to hopefully get a lot more info on the car.
My racing expertise is sadly lacking, but if Nissan is the name that is known then I would say keep it the same. What about the NSX? In the racing world do they use the Honda or Acura name?
I sure hope the GTR will give Porsche et al a run for their money. My affinity for the Infiniti badge is strictly for new car purchases and the customer support issues we have discussed.
Eagerly looking forward to the TMS to hopefully get a lot more info on the car.
08-06-2005, 01:54 PM
#18
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dragon, insofar as keeping Nissan as the consumer branding in lieu of Infinity for the GT-R, from an advertising standpoint that would more than likely be unwise and not really feasible, that i think about it.
however, getting to the NSX issue, in the Japanese GT Championship Series (JGTC), the NSX races under Team Honda Racing when the actual manufacturer is the entrant; the car is called-out in the class listing as Honda NSX.
what i don't understand in this reasoning is why is it not entered as "Team Mugen," as this is the racing branch of Honda. (?)
the NSX, when entered under an aftermarket or r&d team, like, for example, Team Kunimitsu (named after the founder, Takahashi Kunimitsu, whom, after 42 years as a race driver, retired in 1999 to be a team owner only), is called-out in the class listing as Honda NSX.
the Nissan Fairlady Z is listed in the callout as such, and when Nissan itself enters the car, it is entered as Nismo (as this is the racing component of Nissan: "Nissan Motorsports International).
when a support company is the entrant, like Team Impul (similar to Tommy Kaira in that Impul will tune and hand-rebuild an entire car to its specific characteristics, then offer it for sale. often, too, Impul is seen paired up with Calsonic --makers of engine cooling and exhaust systems, many of which such parts appear on Nissan consumer car models, like the Skyline GT-R and Nissan Maxima), the car is listed as a Nissan ..... (whatever the car is, like Nissan Fairlady Z).
it is my guesstimation that when the GT-R competes in the JGTC, it will undoubtedly be called out in the class listing (be it GT500 or GT300), as Nissan GT-R --as i sort of expected, looking back at post #16. in purely racing terms, the GT-R will be, in my surest expectation, Nissan GT-R.
the Acura NSX is not an Acura, technically speaking, when competing. it is Honda.
the Infinity GT-R is not an Infinity, technically speaking, when competing. it is Nissan.
the process of thinking this issue through, in the good points brought up here by everyone so far, has lead me to understand that the racing component of a manufacturer is distinct from the consumer component.
to me, then, calling the "interface" to the direct buying public, "Infiniti," does not really leave me feeling as unsettled as i once was at the beginning of the thread. and in lots of ways i don't care:
when we see (soon enough) the JGTC and the GT-R, one of them will have the telltale "Impul" and "Calsonic" decals spread across it, painted blue, and listed in the GT class call-out list as "Nissan GT-R." and when Nissan itself enters the car, the entrant will be listed as Nismo. which makes sense.
here is such a listing:
http://supergt.net/supergt/2005/05r04/0504entry_en.shtm
however, getting to the NSX issue, in the Japanese GT Championship Series (JGTC), the NSX races under Team Honda Racing when the actual manufacturer is the entrant; the car is called-out in the class listing as Honda NSX.
what i don't understand in this reasoning is why is it not entered as "Team Mugen," as this is the racing branch of Honda. (?)
the NSX, when entered under an aftermarket or r&d team, like, for example, Team Kunimitsu (named after the founder, Takahashi Kunimitsu, whom, after 42 years as a race driver, retired in 1999 to be a team owner only), is called-out in the class listing as Honda NSX.
the Nissan Fairlady Z is listed in the callout as such, and when Nissan itself enters the car, it is entered as Nismo (as this is the racing component of Nissan: "Nissan Motorsports International).
when a support company is the entrant, like Team Impul (similar to Tommy Kaira in that Impul will tune and hand-rebuild an entire car to its specific characteristics, then offer it for sale. often, too, Impul is seen paired up with Calsonic --makers of engine cooling and exhaust systems, many of which such parts appear on Nissan consumer car models, like the Skyline GT-R and Nissan Maxima), the car is listed as a Nissan ..... (whatever the car is, like Nissan Fairlady Z).
it is my guesstimation that when the GT-R competes in the JGTC, it will undoubtedly be called out in the class listing (be it GT500 or GT300), as Nissan GT-R --as i sort of expected, looking back at post #16. in purely racing terms, the GT-R will be, in my surest expectation, Nissan GT-R.
the Acura NSX is not an Acura, technically speaking, when competing. it is Honda.
the Infinity GT-R is not an Infinity, technically speaking, when competing. it is Nissan.
the process of thinking this issue through, in the good points brought up here by everyone so far, has lead me to understand that the racing component of a manufacturer is distinct from the consumer component.
to me, then, calling the "interface" to the direct buying public, "Infiniti," does not really leave me feeling as unsettled as i once was at the beginning of the thread. and in lots of ways i don't care:
when we see (soon enough) the JGTC and the GT-R, one of them will have the telltale "Impul" and "Calsonic" decals spread across it, painted blue, and listed in the GT class call-out list as "Nissan GT-R." and when Nissan itself enters the car, the entrant will be listed as Nismo. which makes sense.
here is such a listing:
http://supergt.net/supergt/2005/05r04/0504entry_en.shtm
08-07-2005, 01:44 PM
#19
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Bonzelite,
Sorry, what I was trying to say was if the Nissan name is the one known in the racing world, then it should remain that way, with Infiniti being the public consumer badge.
But the success of the GTR will not be whether it is called Nissan or Infinit, but what the car looks like and how it feels to drive it. Hopefully, the TMS this Fall will give us an answer to at least the looks department.
Sorry, what I was trying to say was if the Nissan name is the one known in the racing world, then it should remain that way, with Infiniti being the public consumer badge.
But the success of the GTR will not be whether it is called Nissan or Infinit, but what the car looks like and how it feels to drive it. Hopefully, the TMS this Fall will give us an answer to at least the looks department.
08-07-2005, 02:46 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by dragon
Bonzelite,
Sorry, what I was trying to say was if the Nissan name is the one known in the racing world, then it should remain that way, with Infiniti being the public consumer badge.
But the success of the GTR will not be whether it is called Nissan or Infiniti, but what the car looks like and how it feels to drive it. Hopefully, the TMS this Fall will give us an answer to at least the looks department.
Sorry, what I was trying to say was if the Nissan name is the one known in the racing world, then it should remain that way, with Infiniti being the public consumer badge.
But the success of the GTR will not be whether it is called Nissan or Infiniti, but what the car looks like and how it feels to drive it. Hopefully, the TMS this Fall will give us an answer to at least the looks department.
it will be kept Nissan as a racing machine, more than likely. i will be really dumbfounded if it is called Infiniti GT-R in JGTC or anywhere else. the racing and consumer components of Nissan are entirely different.
ultimately, yeah, if the car looks like a$$, and is mediocre in performance compared to other cars in its class, it will probably be a huge disappointment sales-wise and just overall. and it will cast a shameful darkness over the Nissan name, a humiliation.
personally, i think it will be awesome, though. i'm betting that, yes, of course it will be entirely redesigned, but will carry forward the prestige and heritage that has elevated the GT-R nameplate to religious prorportions. i think it will please open-minded veterans and absolute begginers alike.
people in love with only (and for good reason) the 8th, 9th, and 10th gen GT-R body styles, who cannot fully accept all of the current changes to the body designs of the 11th gens, may be entirely ignoring the fact that the GT-R has gone through several incarnations years beforehand in the late 1960s and early 1970s: PGC10 (4 dr), KPGC10 (2dr) and KPGC110 (2 dr) --the body styles of which look very different than what most people today (not including hardcore fanatics, historians, and devout japanese) immediately think of when you say "GT-R."
and in some ways, getting back to my initial contempt for clueless future-buyers of the GT-R heritage --the ignorance of those people whom were never fully aware of the prior gens' body styles will *absolutely work in favor of* the global rollout of Infinity as a worldwide moniker --the '08 GT-R may very well "fully bake" the entire Infiniti identity, from one built of luxury to jaw-dropping performance --it will cover all bases, becoming an icon of worship all over again to *newcomers.* and catapult Nissan into yet another place.
just look at how on-fire Nissan is selling their stuff in the recent front news page article posted on the homepage. the GT-R will only further accelerate this trend, i think. espeically if it is a looker and performer, as you suggest.